On Jul 21, 11:14 am, "Newk Indofman" <newk.indof...@lovesyou.org>
wrote:
> "daveparks" <daveparks...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:35747f25-7e13-4076-bf51-3d51aa6cc5c0@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jul 21, 9:01 am, "Newk Indofman" <newk.indof...@lovesyou.org>
> > wrote:
> >> "daveparks" <daveparks...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:b1af5178-8082-4b00-8ba8-ede089e7c70b@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On Jul 20, 4:32 pm, "Newk Indofman" <newk.indof...@lovesyou.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> "daveparks" <daveparks...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> >>news:af549750-e347-4234-820e-6a4a7d0bee9b@v1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> > On Jul 20, 9:30 am, "Newk Indofman" <newk.indof...@lovesyou.org>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> "daveparks" <daveparks...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> >> >>news:804c049d-69a8-4266-8fe7-2e726fd25e8b@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> >> > On Jul 18, 5:12 pm, "Newk Indofman" <newk.indof...@lovesyou.org>
> >> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> "daveparks" <daveparks...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> >> >> >>news:2d1ee890-a929-4e39-9f6a-f60ebe6060ec@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> >> >> > I didn't ask if a swift execution was more humane that
> >> >> >> >> > throwing
> >> >> >> >> > her
> >> >> >> >> > in
> >> >> >> >> > a dumpster - I asked, if a swift execution was more humane
> >> >> >> >> > that
> >> >> >> >> > forcibly confining someone in a small cell for 40yrs?
>
> >> >> >> >> There is an easy answer to that, is there?
>
> >> >> >> > So you are for capital punishment?
>
> >> >> >> I meant to type, "there is *no* easy answer"
>
> >> >> >> No, in general I am opposed to capital punishment. However, a swift
> >> >> >> execution is probably more "humane" than 40 years of torturous
> >> >> >> isolation.
>
> >> >> > But if you're opposed to the DP 'and' consider sentencing the guilty
> >> >> > to a life of forced confinement in a small cell as inhumane, what do
> >> >> > you pose we do with someone like Atkins?
>
> >> >> I stated that as a hypothetical situation. I don't think that Atkins'
> >> >> confinement or her sentence has been inhumane, especially after
> >> >> reviewing
> >> >> a
> >> >> history of her life in prison. She should remain in prison until her
> >> >> death.
>
> >> > So you don't believe in capital punishment but are accepting of it so
> >> > long as it is swift - and you approve of life imprisonment, so long as
> >> > it doesn't consist of years of "torturous isolation", in which case
> >> > you're instead accepting of the swift execution?
>
> >> That's accurate -- in a simplistic, literalist kind of way.
>
> >> > Way to stand by that
> >> > moral code of yours.
>
> >> I don't believe I stated what my moral code was.
>
> > That hasn't stopped you from criticizing others who AFAICT have also
> > not stated their moral codes; but in order to avoid any wrongful
> > assumptions on my part, please do post your moral code as it pertains
> > to the discussion.
>
> How about: "Treat others as you want to be treated"?
I can agree with that - as would, I'm fairly certain, those calling
for Atkins' painful demise - but I think you're wrongly assuming that
others wouldn't expect to be treated horribly or executed if found
guilty murdering and gleefully mutilating eight innocent people,
including an 8mo pregnant woman who plead for the life of her unborn
child - I personally wouldn't expect anything less.
It's called taking responsibility for one's actions - the responsible
thing IMO for Atkins, Manson, and their associates to have done would
have been to blow their brains out, or stab each other to death;
doesn't matter to me - throw yourself off a bridge, in front of a
train, or strangle yourself with your bed-sheets or prison jumpsuit,
no diff - just 'check out' asap and save our society from supporting
you, hearing from you, or putting up with those who would attempt to
have you released.
> >> I want to say that I
> >> believe in mercy. Morality is a complex and gray area once you start
> >> talking
> >> about real situations.
>
> > Well Atkins' case is the one of topic, and it is a very real
> > situation. Do you believe she warrants mercy?
>
> Yes. "Mercy" is something which we should try to apply to everyone. It
> should be a guiding prinicple, not something we award or deny based on our
> personal feelings. That doesn't mean she should be released. I think she's
> been shown a great deal of mercy, in the way of her health care and by the
> life she has been allowed to live behind bars.
I agree - but IMO more merciful would have been that earlier swift
execution we touched on. Not for Atkins' sake, but on the behalf of
her victim's families and society in general.
That's why IMO the justice system exists, for 'justice', not rehab -
allowing Atkins, Manson, and the rest of those psychotic animals to
live, breath, and carry on to achieve the pseudo-celebrity they have
is IMO equally as obscene as the crimes for which they were convicted
and does absolutely nothing for the benefit of our society in general.
> >> > It would seem that you're against what prison system is supposed to
> >> > represent, *punishment* of the guilty.
>
> >> You're putting words in my mouth, with absolutely no nuance. There are no
> >> easy, one-size-fits-all answers.
>
> > I understand, which is why I was careful to qualify my comment with
> > the verb 'seem' - and I'm just trying to understand your position,
> > which "seems" contradictory. Against the 'death penalty' and 'life
> > imprisonment' with caveats?
>
> >> Prison systems in the US have two aims, which tend to clash. It is
> >> supposed
> >> to be punishment, but it is also supposed to be, at least in theory,
> >> rehabilitative. Depending on the individual institutions, there are lots
> >> of
> >> opportunities for prisoners to get involved in positive activities. And
> >> there are lots of examples of that.
>
> > I disagree - IMO the prison system exists to punish and deter criminal
> > activity; there are plenty of other avenues available for the
> > rehabilitation (including lesser states of 'punishment/incarceration';
> > fines, parole, 2-3 strikes, city jails, county, state/Fed pens, etc.)
> > of those who are ultimately found guilty and imprisoned in this
> > country. Prison isn't IMO a place for rehab.
>
> >> Even so, I agree that Atkins should not
> >> ever be paroled, given the nature of her crimes.
>
> > I agree - but IMO the originally jury-imposed sentence of execution
> > should have been carried out decades ago. I give a rat's ass whether
> > she's rehabilitated, found Jesus, saved others, or cured cancer - what
> > she and the other sick animals did to their victims warranted IMO a
> > public execution.
>
> > At this point, quite honestly, unless you have something of real
> > interesting to add, I really feel Susan Atkins doesn't warrant any
> > more of my time or attention.
>
> Even with capital punishment, America has the highest rate of incarceration
> in the world. Something's not right.
That's because America coddles and attempts to "rehabilitate" sick
animals like Atkins and Manson while housing them in a comparatively
hotel-like environment which does little to deter those who are most
likely to be sentenced to its confines. While U.S. inmates complain
about having their cable tv, weight-rooms, air conditioning, etc.
taken away; foreign prisons have reputations notorious for their
violent and dangerous environments. "Trust me, you don't want to end
up in a <insert dang near any foreign country name here> prison." -
damn right, I don't.
I have ideas of how other countries would have addressed the Manson
perps - and supporting them for almost 40yrs in a comparatively
hospitable prison environment isn't exactly at the top of the list.
> > Thanks, NI.
>
> Thanks to you for being so patient. I appreciate it. I don't pretend to be
> an expert on any of this -- I just have an idealistic streak that won't let
> go.
Ditto - just call me a romantic.
